Debate: IVF on NHS for Lesbians

[ruthie]

In the paper today there is an article about Lesbians being given IVF on the National Health Service, given that the National Health Service is going down the pan financially do you think this is an acceptable way for money to be spent?. Personally I think it is absolutly wrong, this money could go on other medical treatments for people who really need it or for giving normal (sorry not pc but lack of other word) couples more IVF than they currently get.

[lindy]

If its an issue of wether lesbians should have the right to be a mum like any other woman then i say yes,of course they should,im not going to say whats normal and what isnt but if its a case of getting it free then they should have to fund it like every other couple does,if they get 1 free go after a suitable time on the waiting list there fair do's.

[loopychick]

ok lesbians have as many rights being parents as much as we do just becuase they are gay doesn't mean they should be exempt from having kids, as far as ivf goes i think they should get as many free sessions as a man and woman get which i think ins't any unless they have a medical reason i'm not sure of the ins and outs but i just think she should get as much as a man and woman get nothing more nothing less

[emma_buzz]

ok lesbians have as many rights being parents as much as we do just becuase they are gay doesn't mean they should be exempt from having kids, as far as ivf goes i think they should get as many free sessions as a man and woman get which i think ins't any unless they have a medical reason i'm not sure of the ins and outs but i just think she should get as much as a man and woman get nothing more nothing less
:iagree: :yes: :yes:

[ruthie]

It isn't as if these women have problems conceiving it is just that nature stops them. The two women in the paper did actually pay but when do we stop going against what nature intended? An old fashioned view perhaps. I'm not saying they will be bad parents but it just wasn't meant to be and I feel the money could and should be spent helping hetrosexual couples. Also at what stage does the rights of the child come into play?

[wokkies]

yes i agree too lesbians are very much as human as non lesbians and it seems much more fun been a lesbian, the partner would understan you more, sorry if anyone is a lesbian but i am seriously thinking that way now

[MrTempleDene]

I'm going to stick my neck right out and wait to get my head bitten off, but I don't agree with IVF, there are plenty of babies/children need adopting, take one of those instead.

Ask any parent who adopted, they love their adoptees just as much as they do their own kids.

[wokkies]

sorry was just thinking women are more understanding and would be more fun been a lesbian, or more normality, sorry hope i didnt offend any lesbians, specially purple luv ya, i think i am shutting up now anyway

[smirnoff]

imho... all couples should be able to have a child. I know of lesbian and gay couples who have had children and they have been some of the best parents i know.
I do agree with nettys husband that there are loads of children who need adopting, but i dont think that that gives anyone the right to say that any other couple cant have a child.
I think that all couples should be able to have the same ivf opportunities, tbh having heard about what ivf entails i think anyone would have to REALLY REALLY want a baby to go through it.
Good luck to anyone in this position....

[lindy]

I'm going to stick my neck right out and wait to get my head bitten off, but I don't agree with IVF, there are plenty of babies/children need adopting, take one of those instead.

Ask any parent who adopted, they love their adoptees just as much as they do their own kids.

I wont bite your head off because your male!!but the urge to carry and give birth to your own baby is so strong,adoption is great and all that but given the choice im sure most women would rather grow their own if possible.

[MrTempleDene]

I'm sure they would lindy, which is why I would support anyone in that position, and there is something about it being a baby conceived with both partners "seed" which makes it special for men as well.

But IVF seems to be the first choice for so many people, and I think to be handed a little adopted baby that needed you, and to know YOU are now responsible for it's well being, is a choice that's underplayed. One of the kids at Beavers was adopted (he was not a baby either 4 or 5 I think) and his mum dotes on him.

[ruthie]

But IVF seems to be the first choice for so many people, and I think to be handed a little adopted baby that needed you, and to know YOU are now responsible for it's well being, is a choice that's underplayed. One of the kids at Beavers was adopted (he was not a baby either 4 or 5 I think) and his mum dotes on him.


I agree, but I think we think this way because we have been lucky enough to be able to have our own children,I have a friend who has had three IVF attempts but who said she has no interest in adoption, I must admit I can't understand that, but then I guess until you have your own child it must be hard to imagine that you could take to and love someone elses.

[Girlzmum]

I think free IVF is only available to couples who have difficulty conceiving and if it's a lesbian couple who are having difficulty then why not? Gays and lesbians are finally getting the rights to be treated as equals and if they want to welcome a child into their relationship then who are we to try to stop them. They have had to fight long and hard to get to this level of acceptance, yet in a lot of cases they aren't treated equal to hetrosexual couples - so what they prefer members of their own sex, they're in a loving, stable relationship and sexual preference doesn't stop the urge to have children.

[purple_82]

In the paper today there is an article about Lesbians being given IVF on the National Health Service, given that the National Health Service is going down the pan financially do you think this is an acceptable way for money to be spent?. Personally I think it is absolutly wrong, this money could go on other medical treatments for people who really need it or for giving normal (sorry not pc but lack of other word) couples more IVF than they currently get.


The word you were looking for was hetrosexual.
So you think it is fine that a woman has no right to have a child? I see no mention of single woman now being able to have IVF, god forbid a single lesbian 20061008


It isn't as if these women have problems conceiving it is just that nature stops them. The two women in the paper did actually pay but when do we stop going against what nature intended? An old fashioned view perhaps. I'm not saying they will be bad parents but it just wasn't meant to be and I feel the money could and should be spent helping hetrosexual couples. Also at what stage does the rights of the child come into play?

I haven't read this story so I don't know the circumstances but I do know most lesbians don't choose to have IVF to have a baby, they AI.

When was it against what nature intended for a woman to have a baby? When does any unborn child have any rights, when it is born to a violent family, neglecting family, poor family, unwanted pregnancy?

These women want a baby, to be happy, bring a child into the world and raise it with love and care. I see no reason why loving another woman should make a difference.


sorry was just thinking women are more understanding and would be more fun been a lesbian, or more normality, sorry hope i didnt offend any lesbians, specially purple luv ya, i think i am shutting up now anyway

Not offended at all :kissykiss

[MrTempleDene]

I think the point ruthie was making was if nature made someone lesbian then nature is dropping a big hint about having babies. Same with gays.

Too be honest though, all the lesbian and gay friends I have had would make a lot better parents than a lot of straight people I know. I certainly don't have a problem with lesbian and gay couples wanting, and having children. Pity the adoption/IVF laws in this country are so biased against them.

[MrTempleDene]

If I've got your opinion wrong Ruthie I apologise, feel free to stomp me down! I'm used to it <G>

[purple_82]

I think the point ruthie was making was if nature made someone lesbian then nature is dropping a big hint about having babies. Same with gays.



I know what she meant, that is the whole point of nature, create live be happy etc, if people did as 'nature' intended then there would be no abortions no selective sex pregnancies (if a certain sex couldn't be carried) no AI....

[Easties]

to be honest i have no problem with gays (i hate that word as we are all equal we are all human) having ivf if they have problems having babies why shouldnt they have the same rights as a man and a woman couple they are human after all they have the same wants and needs as anyone else i do think that they should try AI first but if they have health probs then yes they should have the same help as a man and woman should get they are no different to anyone else they are normal people with normal needs and wants
why because they like the opposite sex should it be a problem they are still people that want to raise a child just because of their sexuality its a problem
we are living in 2006 this sort of thing shouldnt be a problem nowadays
sory im not making much sense am i so i will shut up now lol xxxxx

[ruthie]

Yes that's right Purple the word was Hetrosexual, I wasn't trying to be funny just that at my age sometimes the correct word goes out of your head.
So just because we are living in 2006 have I not the right to have a different view from anyone else?. I do not believe that nature intended for two women to have a child together and the NHS money could be better spent, if they want to pay for it themselves, foster or adopt so be it. I had no intention to offend anyone but as adults should we not be able to discuss our different views?

[josie]

i believe that everyone has the right to have a baby and be parents! but not sure with the 2 women situation! i guess i may have just been brought up old fashioned! what about these babies they have dont all children have the right to have a mummy and daddy! but saying that most families drift apart these days anyway, and there left with just the one parent! with all these new medicines and everythink these days things are just not the same and the worlds changing everyday!!! i guess the most important thing is if they all ready and willing to bring a child in to the world and love that child for the rest of its life then they will do it anyway! as for the free treatment they had not sure how to anserw that one!!!! but i would say ivf is a great thing! me and my partner were trying for a baby for 12yrs! we now have lovely 7month old twin boys from our 1st attempt! but unfortunatly 1 of our twins was diagnoised with down syndrome after birth! i may be taking this story a bit if track but what i would say is we all want babies but you have to be ready for the good and the bad!!! ok my situation firstly seemed good and bad but now i look at my boys and even though my baby has down syndrome i believe my life is all good!!!!!! and i give myself a pat on the back everyday for bringing my son into the world with difficulties or not but just for being there and giving him all the love and help he needs!!!!!!!!!!!

[wokkies]

I think the point ruthie was making was if nature made someone lesbian then nature is dropping a big hint about having babies. Same with gays.

Too be honest though, all the lesbian and gay friends I have had would make a lot better parents than a lot of straight people I know. I certainly don't have a problem with lesbian and gay couples wanting, and having children. Pity the adoption/IVF laws in this country are so biased against them.
actually just realised i do know 2 lesbians who have a child, the woman had a child before she decided to be a lesbian, but that child is the most polite and well balanced child you can get, then I know of another couple who went for ivf the woman had lovely triplets and the bloke left her.

[purple_82]

Yes that's right Purple the word was Hetrosexual, I wasn't trying to be funny just that at my age sometimes the correct word goes out of your head.
So just because we are living in 2006 have I not the right to have a different view from anyone else?. I do not believe that nature intended for two women to have a child together and the NHS money could be better spent, if they want to pay for it themselves, foster or adopt so be it. I had no intention to offend anyone but as adults should we not be able to discuss our different views?


See, that's what gets me, that's what you don't understand. So it's ok for lesbians/gays to adopt, bring these 'poor' kids up, but they have no right to have their own child? Don't you think with your opinions that you are saying that those adobted, deserve less as they are allowed to be bought up by leabians/gays?

They might be 'ttc' just like every other hetroxsexual couple, it might take years... but just because they are lesbians, they have no female right to have a child unless they pay for it?


Yes, you do have every right to an opinion, as do I.

[Ravenfire]

If the two women involved are both unable to have children then I do agree they should get the same right, however, if they are both able to conceive and its because of their circumstances they cant (two women - no man = no sperm I mean) then no I dont agree with it at all.

[Jen]

What a good thread, not sure whether to add to it or not......ok here goes.
My sister and my BIL are both gay (spooky eh!!) they both make fabulous a fabulous aunty and uncle and I am sure they would make equally a good parent
I’m still unsure on whether or not NHS money should be spent on IVF for people who are capable of conceiving naturally (ok they would need a male) but there is nothing medically stopping them from conceiving.
Just my humble opinion.

[ruthie]

See, that's what gets me, that's what you don't understand. So it's ok for lesbians/gays to adopt, bring these 'poor' kids up, but they have no right to have their own child? Don't you think with your opinions that you are saying that those adobted, deserve less as they are allowed to be bought up by leabians/gays?

They might be 'ttc' just like every other hetroxsexual couple, it might take years... but just because they are lesbians, they have no female right to have a child unless they pay for it?


Yes, you do have every right to an opinion, as do I.

I never said I thought it was ok for them to adopt, I am not going to try to justify my beliefs to anyone as it would be pointless, we don't and won't agree lets leave it at that and let the topic drop.

[Sarah]

Oohh just spotted this, I've not read everyone's replies but no I don't think it's right. If they wish to have a child then they should fund their own treatment.

[twinmummy]

I think free IVF is only available to couples who have difficulty conceiving and if it's a lesbian couple who are having difficulty then why not? Gays and lesbians are finally getting the rights to be treated as equals and if they want to welcome a child into their relationship then who are we to try to stop them. They have had to fight long and hard to get to this level of acceptance, yet in a lot of cases they aren't treated equal to hetrosexual couples - so what they prefer members of their own sex, they're in a loving, stable relationship and sexual preference doesn't stop the urge to have children.
:clapping: :iagree:

Must add that I think all couples no matter what their sexual preference may be, everyone should have the right to go on the NHS list if they have problem conceiving naturally.

[twinmummy]

Oohh just spotted this, I've not read everyone's replies but no I don't think it's right. If they wish to have a child then they should fund their own treatment.


But why should they when hetrosexual couples dont.

[Sarah]

The nhs is stretched enough and heteroxesual couples only get one or two free attempts and then have to spend thousands to get the baby they long for, it's not fair just because someone has made a life choice that makes it impossible to conceive a baby naturally that they should receive free treatment.

[twinmummy]

The nhs is stretched enough and heteroxesual couples only get one or two free attempts and then have to spend thousands to get the baby they long for, it's not fair just because someone has made a life choice that makes it impossible to conceive a baby naturally that they should receive free treatment.
I know what you mean about nhs being streched , but i did say if the couple couldnt conceive naturally , just the same as hetrosexual couples, it should be the same.
same sex couples should have the chance of the 1 to 2 attempts then save and pay themselves just like hetrosexual couples have to do .
I dont think being gay is a life choice i think you are born this way.

[Sarah]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. As a christian I don't believe anyone is 'born that way'. My sister is gay so I've done a lot of soul searching on this subject. Me and my sis are very close and she knows my beliefs on the subject and she respects them and we never argue about it.

[Jen]

The nhs is stretched enough and heteroxesual couples only get one or two free attempts and then have to spend thousands to get the baby they long for, it's not fair just because someone has made a life choice that makes it impossible to conceive a baby naturally that they should receive free treatment.

I don't think gays choose their life style, its what nature intended for them and they do not have a choice, but I do agree NHS should not fund it because it's not medical reasons for not concieving.

[Sarah]

I used to think the same Jen, I don't now.

[Jen]

I used to think the same Jen, I don't now.
both my sister and BIL are gay, and my BIL would love to be married with children, but its not for him.
My sister on the other hand is happy being her.

[Seren]

Great thread !

I'm on the fence, I don't know what I really think about this. I struggle with this.

Part of me thinks that any IVF shouldn't be funded by the NHS for anyone, then a very large part of me thinks every woman should have the right to have/carry their own baby.

I am reminded of Monty Python Life of Brian with this thread though...

I will debate this now with Dh and see if I can come off the fence on this and have an opinion.

[twinmummy]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. As a christian I don't believe anyone is 'born that way'. My sister is gay so I've done a lot of soul searching on this subject. Me and my sis are very close and she knows my beliefs on the subject and she respects them and we never argue about it.
**5** yeah lets shake on it, agree to disagree

Enjoying the debate, off to bed now, night everyone
xxx

[Girlzmum]

I find it very hard to believe that anyone would choose to be gay - it may not hold the stigma it once had but coming out involves a lot of personal risk to the person and I doubt that coming out is a decision that is lightly taken by any gay person. Why on earth would someone subject themselves to possible rejection by their family, friends and peers or to constant bigotry simply as a lifestyle choice?
My former foster brother is gay and my dad is incredibly homophobic, my brother has no contact with my dad because of the way he was treated as a child because it was very obvious at an early age that he was gay. He came to live with us at the age of 4 and we knew then - it is definately not a choice a 4 yo can make.

[smirnoff]

ok.. i have been reading and considering all of this and i have my own very personal reasons for having kept quiet (ish) on this one.. but here goes.....

I do not believe that being gay is a "lifestyle choice" and it makes me cross to be told that tbh. I have lots of gay and lesbian friends and i have watched some of them have a really great "coming out" and some who have lost everything - friends and family, jobs etc - through their sexuality. Why would anyone choose this if it wasnt part of who they are?
I dont think that it makes any difference to anyone because of who they choose to sleep with - it is nothing to do with me. I know a very good friend of mine at uni had a really hard time as he was on the same course as i was (teaching) because he was gay. He was by far the best teacher that i have ever met, and i wish that he now lived closer and worked in a school far more locally so he could teach my children.

With regard to IVF so what? Sorry but i think that it is discrimination that gay couples dont get the same treatment as hetrosexual couples. If it was regarding a job then i am sure that more people would be outraged by the discrimination.

I used to work with and support stonewall working for the fight for equality for gay and lesbian people. I cannot believe that the fight is still going on to this extent. It shouldnt be. I think that everyone deserves to be treated with the same degree of respect, love and dignity and by discriminating in this way i dont think that they are.

I thought that Christianity (and other religious beliefs) taught about humility, "loving your neighbour", respect and forgiveness. I cannot believe that Jesus would have held such homophobic views, so what gives us the right to disrespect someone for who they love and sleep with????

Sorry if i offend, but that is my opinion....

[lisaequi]

I'm going to stick my neck right out and wait to get my head bitten off, but I don't agree with IVF, there are plenty of babies/children need adopting, take one of those instead.

Ask any parent who adopted, they love their adoptees just as much as they do their own kids.

I actually agree with you. I wouldnt go for IVF. if i cant i cant, thats the waty its meant to be.

[ruthie]

Mmm it is difficult, of course Christianity preaches all that you say but it also tells us that god created man and women and that this is the norm and that the union of these two create children. I do beleive some people are born and are attracted to members of the same sex but I also beleive for many due to circumstances it is a life choice. It isn't a matter of disrespecting people but thinking that two people of the same sex having a child is I guess going against gods will. I'm sure Snowfairy being a devout Christian could explain better but if you do not beleive in God you would never understand the point of view. Of course your views don't offend they are what you beleive to be right.

[smirnoff]

i know that several of my friends could put the argument that christianity doesnt teach against homosexuality, but tbh i cant remember all the quotes and stuff!!
All i know is that i truly believe that god is not going to judge me or anyone else for who i sleep with, i think it is about how you live your life.
I do also believe that all people have the right to be treated equally, or what makes it any different than animal farm "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"???
I do take on board what you are saying and i think it was purple who said earlier about lesbians generally going for ai... some i have met have done it this way too.
I am glad in some ways that i am not responsible for making the legislation regarding this one, but also think that there are other things involved here...

[Sarah]

I've not read the last few posts on this thread as it's gone totally off topic, the question was do you think that lesbian couples should be given free ivf treatment, my answer is no, I shouldn't have to explain my reasons for my opinion as I don't think anyone else has had to. That's my last word. If anyone is really interested in my views regarding anything and I mean genuinely interested and not just wanting to start a debate, then please feel free to add me to your MSN and we'll chat about it :)
Sarah_2002xx@hotmail.com.

[Ravenfire]

I dont agree its gone off topic at all, its merely a debate - hence it being posted in the Debates topic!

For what its worth I do disagree with you on this Sarah because as Colette said in an earlier post I dont think its a case of people thinking "oh lets be gay". My BIL is gay and it was very very hard for him to come out and he only did it after many years of trying to day what he was told was "the right thing".

It has been explained the question meant should they get IVF treatment if they are unable to conceive themselves - by this I believe its meant they have something medically wrong which is preventing them from conceiving rather than because they are in a gay relationship. If this is the case then they should have the same rights as heterosexual couples.

Who has the right to say that because you fancy the same sex means that you shouldnt be offered the same rights as others.

[Ravenfire]

ok.. i have been reading and considering all of this and i have my own very personal reasons for having kept quiet (ish) on this one.. but here goes.....

I do not believe that being gay is a "lifestyle choice" and it makes me cross to be told that tbh. I have lots of gay and lesbian friends and i have watched some of them have a really great "coming out" and some who have lost everything - friends and family, jobs etc - through their sexuality. Why would anyone choose this if it wasnt part of who they are?
I dont think that it makes any difference to anyone because of who they choose to sleep with - it is nothing to do with me. I know a very good friend of mine at uni had a really hard time as he was on the same course as i was (teaching) because he was gay. He was by far the best teacher that i have ever met, and i wish that he now lived closer and worked in a school far more locally so he could teach my children.

With regard to IVF so what? Sorry but i think that it is discrimination that gay couples dont get the same treatment as hetrosexual couples. If it was regarding a job then i am sure that more people would be outraged by the discrimination.

I used to work with and support stonewall working for the fight for equality for gay and lesbian people. I cannot believe that the fight is still going on to this extent. It shouldnt be. I think that everyone deserves to be treated with the same degree of respect, love and dignity and by discriminating in this way i dont think that they are.

I thought that Christianity (and other religious beliefs) taught about humility, "loving your neighbour", respect and forgiveness. I cannot believe that Jesus would have held such homophobic views, so what gives us the right to disrespect someone for who they love and sleep with????

Sorry if i offend, but that is my opinion....

You've made some great comments there **5**

[Ravenfire]

I've not read the last few posts on this thread as it's gone totally off topic, the question was do you think that lesbian couples should be given free ivf treatment, my answer is no, I shouldn't have to explain my reasons for my opinion as I don't think anyone else has had to. That's my last word. If anyone is really interested in my views regarding anything and I mean genuinely interested and not just wanting to start a debate, then please feel free to add me to your MSN and we'll chat about it :)
Sarah_2002xx@hotmail.com.

Sarah I think that if you did read back over the posts that twinmummy did clarify what she meant in her original post - couldnt conceive naturally not because of the situation but for medical reasons.

[Daffs]

I can't remember if I have previously replied or not, at least I can't find it with a quick look. I think that everything that Smirnoff said on the last page and quoted above by Ravenfire, expesses my own views on the subject and I believe that *anyone*, no matter what their sexuality is, should be helped by IVF if they have medical problems. Why? Everyone should be treated equal.

Got us debating, eh? :yes:

[smirnoff]

good debate me feels!!!

[Daffs]

Very interesting actually, although I am not as articulate at putting my views as you are Smirnoff. What shall we debate about next?

[Sarah]

Sarah I think that if you did read back over the posts that twinmummy did clarify what she meant in her original post - couldnt conceive naturally not because of the situation but for medical reasons.
I had no issue whatsoever with what twinmummy said, if you read back we both agreed do disagree.

[Ravenfire]

I understand that but I gained the impression, as you hadnt read all posts, that you thought it had gone off topic - when actually it hadnt and all posts do tie into the same subject.

[smirnoff]

Very interesting actually, although I am not as articulate at putting my views as you are Smirnoff. What shall we debate about next?
thanks!!!
Not sure what next.. have started a thread about section 28....

[Sarah]

Ah ok that's not how I read it.
Just out of interest I've got 3 children here today from 15 down to 11 and I told them the thread title and asked them their opinion (without giving mine) of what they felt. All 3 never even mentioned the rights or wrongs of the treatment itself just that they felt it wasn't fair for any child to be brought up in a that environment and these are today's youngters speaking from the heart.

[Ravenfire]

Also from what they have learnt from you though Sarah to be fair - initially a lot of our views growing up as children came from what we were told by our parents and its really only as you get older you read more - experience more and get your own views on things.

My parents grew up being told being gay was wrong and it was against the law - in turn to a certain extent their views were passed on to me as I was growing up.

What environment do they feel is wrong the use of IVF or being GAY?

[Sarah]

They are not all my children Toni! They feel that a child brought up in a gay environment isn't fair on the child.

[Ravenfire]

But which situation was it they felt was wrong - and do you really think at their ages they fully understand the implications of what we have been discussing? Thats not being rude to them but at the end of the day they are children and at this age pretty naive on a lot of subjects

[Sarah]

Who knows Toni, I can't debate on their behalf and they've gone off the subject now and are all watching a film together. All I can say is they know how they *think* they might feel if both their parents were same sex and they don't think they'd like it, they feel they'd be picked on at school etc, which it's very likely they would. But like the rest of us they can't talk from experience they just form an opinion on the facts that they have available at the time.

[Ravenfire]

Obviously yes children would naturally think that, its how they have been brought up and at their ages I dont believe they have the life experience to think any differently unless they have experience of it in some way. My girls and stepson understand that their uncle is gay, he lives with a man and that people dont always fall in love with people of the opposite sex - but even so they know all they need to know at this age and thats it - they are still very naive as well.

Very possible that all of our children will have very different views when they are older to those they have now.

[Sarah]

I don't believe you have to have a 'life experience' to have a valid opinion of lots of topics, but I see your point. It is possible they will have very different views on lots of topics, but if they choose the christian faith for themselves then they won't deviate much from their christian beliefs.

[Katiequiggle]

ok.. i have been reading and considering all of this and i have my own very personal reasons for having kept quiet (ish) on this one.. but here goes.....

I do not believe that being gay is a "lifestyle choice" and it makes me cross to be told that tbh. I have lots of gay and lesbian friends and i have watched some of them have a really great "coming out" and some who have lost everything - friends and family, jobs etc - through their sexuality. Why would anyone choose this if it wasnt part of who they are?
I dont think that it makes any difference to anyone because of who they choose to sleep with - it is nothing to do with me. I know a very good friend of mine at uni had a really hard time as he was on the same course as i was (teaching) because he was gay. He was by far the best teacher that i have ever met, and i wish that he now lived closer and worked in a school far more locally so he could teach my children.

With regard to IVF so what? Sorry but i think that it is discrimination that gay couples dont get the same treatment as hetrosexual couples. If it was regarding a job then i am sure that more people would be outraged by the discrimination.

I used to work with and support stonewall working for the fight for equality for gay and lesbian people. I cannot believe that the fight is still going on to this extent. It shouldnt be. I think that everyone deserves to be treated with the same degree of respect, love and dignity and by discriminating in this way i dont think that they are.

I thought that Christianity (and other religious beliefs) taught about humility, "loving your neighbour", respect and forgiveness. I cannot believe that Jesus would have held such homophobic views, so what gives us the right to disrespect someone for who they love and sleep with????

Sorry if i offend, but that is my opinion....

It's not often tha I don't have an opinion of my own, but infact Smirnoff has quoted me almost word for word everything that was going through my mind when I came on this thread to read. Except of course her personal conections etc.

I am a Christian, my husband is a Christian and our children are being brought up as Christians. I don't know which church others belong to and it isnt' any of my business anyway but at at our church (Methodist) we welcome anybody and everybody into our 'family' I doesn't matter if they have 1 leg, 3heads, 7 eyes, disabilities, whether they're black white or sky blue pink, gay or lesbian. God made every single one of us, he made each of us individually and he made us all who and what we are for a specific reason.

No one chooses to be gay any more than any of us choose to have a skin tone in a different colour to their neighbour or to have freckles or to be born with a hole in the heart or with blue, green, brown or hazel eyes, or with only one leg with black, brown, blonde or ginger hair. We are born as we are because of the amazing make up of our genes, Gay people are born gay they do not choose to be gay.

I could not worship a God who didn't except all his children exactly as they are, Love is unconditional. If anyone is to do any judging of other people it is him not any of us.

Don't ever hide behind Christianity or use Christianity to push your views forward, it isnt what God intended you to do with your faith. Except everyone for who they are and to coin a phrase 'Love thy neighbour'

Sorry if this post seems a bit preachy it certainly isn't meant to and I fully acknoweledge (sp) everyones view on the subject. This is only my opinion.

[lisaequi]

It's not often tha I don't have an opinion of my own, but infact Smirnoff has quoted me almost word for word everything that was going through my mind when I came on this thread to read. Except of course her personal conections etc.

I am a Christian, my husband is a Christian and our children are being brought up as Christians. I don't know which church others belong to and it isnt' any of my business anyway but at at our church (Methodist) we welcome anybody and everybody into our 'family' I doesn't matter if they have 1 leg, 3heads, 7 eyes, disabilities, whether they're black white or sky blue pink, gay or lesbian. God made every single one of us, he made each of us individually and he made us all who and what we are for a specific reason.

No one chooses to be gay any more than any of us choose to have a skin tone in a different colour to their neighbour or to have freckles or to be born with a hole in the heart or with blue, green, brown or hazel eyes, or with only one leg with black, brown, blonde or ginger hair. We are born as we are because of the amazing make up of our genes, Gay people are born gay they do not choose to be gay.

I could not worship a God who didn't except all his children exactly as they are, Love is unconditional. If anyone is to do any judging of other people it is him not any of us.

Don't ever hide behind Christianity or use Christianity to push your views forward, it isnt what God intended you to do with your faith. Except everyone for who they are and to coin a phrase 'Love thy neighbour'

Sorry if this post seems a bit preachy it certainly isn't meant to and I fully acknoweledge (sp) everyones view on the subject. This is only my opinion.

:yes: :yes: :yes:

[Sarah]

I am a Christian, my husband is a Christian and our children are being brought up as Christians. I don't know which church others belong to and it isnt' any of my business anyway but at at our church (Methodist) we welcome anybody and everybody into our 'family' I doesn't matter if they have 1 leg, 3heads, 7 eyes, disabilities, whether they're black white or sky blue pink, gay or lesbian. God made every single one of us, he made each of us individually and he made us all who and what we are for a specific reason.

I could not worship a God who didn't except all his children exactly as they are, Love is unconditional. If anyone is to do any judging of other people it is him not any of us.

Don't ever hide behind Christianity or use Christianity to push your views forward, it isnt what God intended you to do with your faith. Except everyone for who they are and to coin a phrase 'Love thy neighbour'

Sorry if this post seems a bit preachy it certainly isn't meant to and I fully acknoweledge (sp) everyones view on the subject. This is only my opinion.

I agree totally.

[smirnoff]

It's not often tha I don't have an opinion of my own, but infact Smirnoff has quoted me almost word for word everything that was going through my mind when I came on this thread to read. Except of course her personal conections etc.


LOL!!! Cool...
I talked to marc about this one and he raised the point about children being teased at school about it... But surely if there wer more openly gay and lesbian parents and better education at school (see my section 28 thread!!) then the prejudice would be lessened????

[Sarah]

I'm not prejudiced or homophobic in anyway, please read my new thread here (http://www.mumszone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=14035) where I try to explain a little of what I believe.

[smirnoff]

i hope i didnt imply you were sarah.. just i have met a lot of people claiming to be "christian" who are some of the most bigoted, homophobic, racist and prejudiced people i have ever had the misfortune to meet!!
You on the other hand seem to be very wonderful and what i would describe as a "true christian"

[Tinkabell]

Only just read this thread and must admit I think I am on the fence, can see both sides of the argument and don't really know which way I think.

It has been very informative to read other peoples posts and I wish I was as articulate as some of the people who have posted.

[kathyhinsh]

I'm not going 2 even go there on the religious issues (due 2 my upbringing) but I would like 2 say tha I agree with Netty's Hubby about adoption, as there really r 2 many unwanted children out there...but also I do agree that it would be so nice if IVF could free 4 all ppl whether they be hetrosexual, homosexual or singles (itms!) cos surely @ the end of the day its down 2 how much a person wants a child, & if that child is wanted desperately enough, then surely the parent(s) will do their very best in bringing it up 2 be as happy & normal as they possibly can...wotever 'normal' is!!

[kathyhinsh]

ps...I prob just spouted off the usual sort of cr@p I usually do, & I hope I didnt upset any1 with wot I said

[smirnoff]

i agree!

[Lemon]

I think it's so easy to say what we wish to do with our lives and what other's maybe should do with theirs and not giving much regard to the child that is being brought into the world. I think the child's happiness should be foremost but that statement would go with any parent in the world thinking about having a baby.

[WriterMum]

Does it cover IVF for traditional male-female couples? If so, then I think it should cover IVF for lesbians.

That said, there are lots of other fertility treatments that can be tried first, except in special cases where testing shows that only IVF would likely work. I'd think that for most lesbian couples, IUIs (which are MUCH less expensive) would work.

[icats7]

IVF isnt free to traditional male-female couples in fact it is a post code lottery. I know that in our shire if the woman has the problem then they get a free go but if its the male then they dont, and no you cant get the treatment elsewhere for free as it is done purely by your postcode.

The reason why many people dont want to adopt is because they want their baby to have their genes, this isnt to say that they would love an adopted child any less but when they look at their child they want to be able to say " he has your nose" IYSWIM